Help with Eaton T-14607B shifting issue

I am having difficulty with a T-14607B seven speed in a business class M2. It has a new clutch but after depressing the clutch even after a few seconds the countershafts seem to be still spinning a little and it clunks into gear. This trans will also not down shift at all even after double clutching. I have drained the fluid now and it was about a half inch below the plug and foaming bad. I am wondering if the countershafts need the fluid resistance to help them spin down and if I am on the right track with this problem.
Thanks for any help.
 

Truck Shop

Well-known member
Welcome to HTF.--- Did you replace the pilot bearing? And does it have a twin disc clutch or single disc stamped steel pressure plate? Did you install a new
clutch brake? Did you have the flywheel machined? Did you do the internal adjustment first on the pressure plate to gain proper distance from throw-out
bearing to clutch brake, then adjust the the linkage for proper free play? Eaton has a file for help you can down load. I provided the page
in a previous post if you look you will see Eaton Help videos. One other thing you did install the discs going the right way?



Truck Shop
 
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BoxCarKidd

Active member
Thank you are missing a letter or more in the front of the model number but that and the oil a little low is not the shifting problem.
As far as the clutch brake improper adjustment or one of many worn parts come to mind. Front bearing cover, clutch fork tips, shafts, and bushings to name a few. The tabs in a clutch brake can be broken off the first time the truck is moved by someone trying to stop the truck with it.
A new clutch not wanting to release can be caused by a worn input shaft, bad pilot bearing, tight clutch plate splines or center plate.
Worked at a place with some RTLO 14607's at one time. They were a bit different to shift anyway. The old hands could come out of a mud pit with 100,000 shifting in LL, L, D, and OD on the interstate at 70. The new hands would be stopped or at least slowed down a couple times grinding gears. Not as difficult as a quadraplex but a close second. The straight 7 speed Fullers were not difficult as I recall.
 
Welcome to HTF.--- Did you replace the pilot bearing? And does it have a twin disc clutch or single disc stamped steel pressure plate? Did you install a new
clutch brake? Did you have the flywheel machined? Did you do the internal adjustment first on the pressure plate to gain proper distance from throw-out
bearing to clutch brake, then adjust the the linkage for proper free play? Eaton has a file for help you can down load. I provided the page
in a previous post if you look you will see Eaton Help videos. One other thing you did install the discs going the right way?



Truck Shop
It appears like the clutch is a cast iron Eaton pressure plate with a indicator that tells clutch condition. The flywheel has fresh machining marks so I would imagine it was surfaced. Not sure about the pilot bearing. The throw out bearing appears to be new. I checked the clearance at the throw out bearing and it was normal around .550 the linkage is all mechanical and tried adjusting it but it didn't make any difference. If I miss a gear in the shifting or try to down shift the trans I will have to come to a complete stop to ever get it back in gear. I sure appreciate your input.
 
Thank you are missing a letter or more in the front of the model number but that and the oil a little low is not the shifting problem.
As far as the clutch brake improper adjustment or one of many worn parts come to mind. Front bearing cover, clutch fork tips, shafts, and bushings to name a few. The tabs in a clutch brake can be broken off the first time the truck is moved by someone trying to stop the truck with it.
A new clutch not wanting to release can be caused by a worn input shaft, bad pilot bearing, tight clutch plate splines or center plate.
Worked at a place with some RTLO 14607's at one time. They were a bit different to shift anyway. The old hands could come out of a mud pit with 100,000 shifting in LL, L, D, and OD on the interstate at 70. The new hands would be stopped or at least slowed down a couple times grinding gears. Not as difficult as a quadraplex but a close second. The straight 7 speed Fullers were not difficult as I recall.
Anything is possible with this truck it came from a freight company and only has 145,000 on the truck w/new clutch and looks like the trans has junk yard yellow writing on it.
I can't imagine this trans is supposed to work like this its undriveable. Sounds like the counter shafts don't stop spinning and are spinning at road speed even with clutch depressed. If you ever take it out of gear going down the road there isn't anyway to get it back in gear unless you stop.
here is the data plate pic.
eaton data plate.jpg

I guess maybe a pilot bearing seized might cause it. it is definitely hard to or near impossible to drive I don't want to be a hazard out there.
Thanks for any ideas I might pull the top off the mag plug was clean.

Is the clutch brake the tanged thrust bearing just aft of the Throwout bearing? It appears to be floating on the input shaft is that normal?
 
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Truck Shop

Well-known member
You say there is a wear indicator- that sounds like it has a Eaton Solo self adjusting clutch. I am not a fan of those clutches-just my opinion.
And no the clutch brake should not rotate on the input shaft. It has two tangs that mesh with the two long splines in the input shaft. That is
your problem of not being able to get it in gear at a stop. Is the transmission out? Is the clutch brake one solid disc or is it a two piece?
If it were me I would install the Babcock SB200 pin type clutch brake. Easy to remove and easy to install. If yours is a one piece you will
need someone experienced with removing it. I use a torch and cut most of the way through then finish with a long chisel. You have to be
careful doing it that way, you don't want to nick or cut the input shaft with the torch. What I just explained is changing the clutch brake
while transmission is still in the truck. Out of the truck is no big deal.

What caused the clutch brake to go out was the pedal was pushed to the floor while the truck was moving. Never do that-only depress
the clutch enough to change gears. Like half way of pedal travel.

Truck Shop
 
I see from a picture (Babcock SB200) there should be friction material on the face of the clutch brake. The face of this one looks like its gone it looks like a one piece made out thin of stamped steel. The tangs are still engaged but I bet when they changed the clutch they forgot to change the clutch brake(truck never shifted right). Trans is still in place I should be able to finesse cutting/splitting the old one off. thanks for your help I will change it and let you all know.:)
 
I have to say that the inner part of the clutch brake disc is harder than the hubs of hell. Truck Stop I give you serious props for getting in there with a torch I am scared LOL. My solution is to grind this inner disk at least 3/4 of the way then split it (either with a carbide cutter or a wheel on a IR 90 degree). I figure if i wedge two 1/4" shims on each side I can put the clutch brake safely in the middle between the Throwout bearing and the transmission cluth brake face so I don't nick the important parts.
I saw were they sell a fixture for drilling these but even with a low speed slow motor air drill and a good cobalt bit the task seems time consuming.
I will change the clutch brake and may end up pulling the trans to check for other damage seems like there is more going on here than a clutch brake. Glad I am not trying to make flat rate on this job.
 

Truck Shop

Well-known member
I have to say that the inner part of the clutch brake disc is harder than the hubs of hell. Truck Stop I give you serious props for getting in there with a torch I am scared LOL. My solution is to grind this inner disk at least 3/4 of the way then split it (either with a carbide cutter or a wheel on a IR 90 degree). I figure if i wedge two 1/4" shims on each side I can put the clutch brake safely in the middle between the Throwout bearing and the transmission cluth brake face so I don't nick the important parts.
I saw were they sell a fixture for drilling these but even with a low speed slow motor air drill and a good cobalt bit the task seems time consuming.
I will change the clutch brake and may end up pulling the trans to check for other damage seems like there is more going on here than a clutch brake. Glad I am not trying to make flat rate on this job.

It usually takes me 30 minutes to cut a one piece clutch brake out and install a new one, that includes set-up time. And the center is hard as hell. The SB200 is easy
to remove using a torch, a cut 1/4" deep to slice the pins and out she goes. In our shop drivers catch hell for tearing out a clutch brake. I ask how would they like dripping
slag for lunch.

You could be having issues with the clutch also. I would go back with a manual adjust Eaton rated for 150 FT LBS more torque than the engine puts out at peak torque.
If you do go that route check the cross shafts, cross shaft bushings in the bell and the clutch fork for wear. Check the input shaft dowel for the pilot bearing for wear
and the splines on the input shaft for wear. That trans should easy to shift without the clutch or with the clutch. Sounds to me that someone got a plate in backwards
and that will cause the clutch to not disengage correctly. Which could have led to the clutch brake being in sad shape. I have been a mechanic for 44 or so years.

Maybe RZ will chime in and give his opinion too. He is a pretty sharp fellow.

Truck Shop
 
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Thanks Truck shop I am going to pull the trans tomorrow. I hope its is just a clutch backwards or a pilot bearing. no wonder the freight company sold this low mileage machine.
 
I pulled the trans here are the pictures of the clutch.

IMAG0399.jpgIMAG0400.jpg


It looks like it was gummed up with anti seize on the splines and the manual says none, but i think the main problem is the pilot bearing wasn't inserted far enough and the input shaft drove it in the rest of the way. Maybe they drove it in on the inner race who knows.
I am concerned about the clutch hot spots seems it is contacting uneven.
Any ideas?

IMAG0375.jpgIMAG0376.jpgIMAG0381.jpg
 
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Truck Shop

Well-known member
Is that flywheel surface smooth or a better question had it been machined? When those flywheels are machined the same amount must be removed from
the outer centering ring. Looks to me like someone just slammed a clutch in it and to hell with the rest of the job. Obviously no one changed the bushings,
cross-shafts and clutch fork. From what I can see the input shaft does not look too bad. Is the number on that clutch cover 108925-82? If it is it's a 1700
ft lb rating. It looks like one to me.

When you reinstall the clutch and trans, install it as one unit. I have a thread on how to do it listed in this same group of threads

Your doing a good job by the way inspecting everything along the way.

Truck Shop
 

BoxCarKidd

Active member
!: If someone gave me a free Solo clutch to put in my truck while the transmission was out I would pass!
2: Hot spots on the pads must be nature of the beast because each one has the same two spots.
3: Pilot bearing not in enough is not the problem.
4: Clutch shafts have not been out. I would not put it back together without at least taking them out and checking them out. How is the wear on the clutch fork tips?
5:I have seen people gob anti-seize and grease on the shafts. Neither caused poor release.
6: Will the disc slid free on the shaft?
7: Does the clutch hub fit in the flywheel opening?
 

Truck Shop

Well-known member
!: If someone gave me a free Solo clutch to put in my truck while the transmission was out I would pass!
2: Hot spots on the pads must be nature of the beast because each one has the same two spots.
3: Pilot bearing not in enough is not the problem.
4: Clutch shafts have not been out. I would not put it back together without at least taking them out and checking them out. How is the wear on the clutch fork tips?
5:I have seen people gob anti-seize and grease on the shafts. Neither caused poor release.
6: Will the disc slid free on the shaft?
7: Does the clutch hub fit in the flywheel opening?
I agree with you on every thing except the one driven disc pictured to the flywheel has no hot spots. Only the outer edge is dark on the pads. Which leads
me to think the disc is catching on the uneven area or edge worn by the old disc.

Truck Shop
 
Thanks for the input, the flywheel checks with a straight edge I didn't have a flywheel turning tool to do a run-out check. The p/n is a 209701-82, the cross shafts have about .010 half concentric wear at the worst spot left side. the clutch fork ears look very good. The clutch brake was still good it was covered in dirt and grease it looked worn out. After i got it out and inspected it the material was still there just grease covered. It is being replaced.

The input shaft where it goes in the pilot bearing looks like it has no wear it measures 1.160 and the pilot bearing new measures 1.180 twenty thousandth clearance seems alot?
I went and checked to see if the clutch hub fit in the flywheel and it does. But i discovered that the clutch hub is what pushed in the seal of the pilot bearing. It is distorted and not flat like the seal on the bearing should be. Its being replaced anyhow.
The disks slide free on the shaft there is some wear that can be felt on the splines.
The forward clutch is the one with the outer edges burned.
Thanks for your help!! it is appreciated.
 

Truck Shop

Well-known member
That's a Eaton Solo clutch you have there and it is rated at 1700 ft lbs-that's what the 82 stands for. The first numeral 2 is a two year warranty.
You could put that back in but a nice easy pedal manual adjust would be the way to go. Just my two cents.

Truck Shop
 
It seems this is Eaton solo advantage is there latest and greatest lol. 1700 lb is what I came up with too. I am looking into getting a K-2468 kit and changing the input shaft,clutch fork and related stuff.
 
Turns out the input shaft was worn .020 at the pilot bearing and you could see inside the pilot bearing the fretting chatter.
That In my opinion is why the the outer edges of the fwd clutch where burned and that may have been why the pilot bearing was displaced aft. The cross shafts are good only .005 wear the bushings are still at final ream +- .005.
It is interesting to note that the p/n kit above was for a 10 speed I believe. Eaton says they don't have enough demand for the 7 speed to build wear kits for clutch r&r.had to buy the input shaft separate. Even at $200 for the kit it's still a value.
Spent a lot of time cleaning, Truck Shop you were right they just slammed a clutch in and when it didn't work the freight company sold it lol.
Pictures to follow.
 
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